Question: We
hear many talks about the convention of “Geneva-2”. You have said that
it is vital to conduct it in the nearest time. Are there any specific or
at least approximate deadlines for its convention?
Sergey Lavrov: As
you understand, to hold this conference, we first need to determine the
composition of its participants. Soon after the announcement of the
Russian-American initiative, which we made together with US Secretary of
State John Kerry in Moscow on the 7 May, the Government of the Syrian
Arab Republic stated that it is ready to send a delegation (to this
conference) without preconditions for the only purpose, set by Russia
and the United States – to attain agreements about full implementation
of the Geneva Communiqué of 30 June 2012 through negotiations.
The opposition has not
done this yet, announcing that it needs some additional guarantees.
Then, somewhere at the beginning of this year, that time leader of the
National Coalition (NC) Moaz al-Khatib stated that he is ready for
negotiations without preconditions. After that he was, as we say,
quickly “removed from his job”, but the current heads state that they
need to restore military balance “on the ground” to participate in this
conference, as well as to receive guarantees that the delegation of
President Bashar al-Assad will come with a declaration of capitulation
and will hand over all their powers to the opposition. This is radically
different from the concept of the Geneva Communiqué of the last year,
on which the Russian-American initiative is based, because according to
this Communiqué, there must be a joint consent of the Syrian Government
and all opposition groups about parameters of the transition period, the
creation of a transitional governing body, which will prepare a text
for the new constitution, elections, etc.
Therefore, the main
question now is not to determine the date and try to adapt to it all
those who hesitate or object. The position of regime’s opponents is too
deeply negative to deal with organisation issues before it changes and
becomes constructive. In accordance with the agreements we reached with
Americans, our US partners are dealing with it. As I was yesterday
convinced by John Kerry during our phone conversation, he assumes
obligations to make the opposition come to the Geneva conference with a
constructive approach and without any unrealistic preconditions.
As soon as we get such
consent, we can start discussing less complicated issues, including the
participation of other opposition groups not included in the coalition.
Kurds, for instance, are very interested that their interests are not
forgotten. They wish to stay in a single Syria, discuss the limits of
their autonomy within the framework of the Syrian Arab Republic’s
territorial integrity at the negotiations.
Of course, we will need
to finally agree on the range of external participants, beside the
Syrian parties. The candidacy of Iran poses some problem. We think that
this country plays the most significant role in the events taking place
in Syria. In all these conditions, all those who have influence on the
processes, must be present at the negotiation table – we cannot isolate
them. However, some countries also expecting to participate in
“Geneva-2” take subjectivist positions saying that Iran has not deserved
such right. Well, we are not talking about any “awards” to be given at
this conference. It is not about a gift, but about the group of
countries, which must be representative at its maximum, so that
everybody, who has influence on this or that Syrian party, are
represented at the conference.
As to its deadlines, I
do not think that it is realistic to hold the conference in September,
as we told some time ago. We will try to resolve all the issues of
content preparation for the conference as soon as possible. Then, I
think, it will not take a long time to set a date for it.
Question: If
UN inspectors find evidences of use of chemical weapons by Bashar
al-Assad’s regime, will Russia agree to reconsider its position, i.e. to
vote for military intervention in the UNSC? Or will Russia abstain in
this vote, as it was in the case of Libya?
Does Russia have a
“Plan B” for the case, if the West initiates a unilateral intervention
to Syria? Is Russia ready to start using means other than diplomatic
statements, including military to assert its position?
Sergey Lavrov: The
“what if” questions are usually not answered at press-conferences. I
will specify one thing: UN experts, who currently are in Syria, received
a mandate to determine whether chemical poisonous weapons were used,
which are prohibited by international conventions, and what substances
these were. There authorizations do not include making any verdicts
regarding, who used these chemical weapons – the Syrian Arab Republic’s
Government and one of numerous opposition groups, be that the Free
Syrian Army or terrorists from Djebhat an-Nusra and the Islamic State of
Iraq and the Levant, or anybody else.
Therefore the logics of
this process was consolidated at the Lough Erne summit in the G8
Declaration of leaders in such a way that an objective professional
investigation is required first and its results should be presented to
the UNSC. Of course, the Security Council will take into account all the
totality of information, including analytical and factual materials
from the Internet and different mass media, when determining the source
of alleged use of chemical weapons.
Question: In
a situation, when the West does not consider common sense and Russian
argumentation, but is ready to make a crazy step, what will be the
position of Russia? Are diplomatic measures sufficient to prevent
manoeuvres of the West and the countries “around its orbit”?
Sergey Lavrov: It
is hard for us to understand the true motivation of our western
colleagues, when, having conducted destructive interventions in Iraq and
then in Libya, and having not solved other problems during the Arab
spring to assist respective countries to become stable, establish
interreligious and interethnic peace, they start to make statements at
the summit level that strike us with the uncertainty of the course they
propose to take.
In my yesterday’s
conversation, I asked John Kerry about their strategy of actions, what
they plan to do for the announced (tough not yet authorised) action of
the United States against Syria to help solving problems of the region
rather than multiplying them and bring the region to a true catastrophe.
I asked him what their plan was. The answer was much narrower than my
question. He appealed to Russia and China to combine efforts to
eradicate chemical weapons and prevent it from getting into wrong hands.
When we talk about the
strategy of our western partners, please pay attention that a couple of
years ago one of the most popular appeals addressed to us and China was,
to a known extent, to make Russia “take the correct side of the
history”. I have no memories of the topic of “the correct side of the
history” being heard in the last half a year or a year. Actually, only
few people understand how the process named Arab spring will end. If
somebody designed this process as a controlled chaos, now only the last
word has left from this phrase.
I am not an advocate of
the conspiracy theory, I do not think that somebody has modelled it. It
is just natural aspiration of peoples for better life, which we always
supported, which took such shapes, when the international community had
to establish a dialogue inside these countries, help them with national
settlement. Instead of that, many key players started to take one part,
probably acting according to the principle – “the winner is always
correct”. They forgot about old alliances, staking at those, whom they
considered the winning party. After that, the winning party become a
loser again.
This is ad-hoc policy.
While we need comprehensive and logic policy. We cannot fight a regime
only because we personally do not like the dictator, and not to fight
the other regime, because we like its autocratic governor. As I have
said to my friend Laurent Fabius (Minister of Foreign Affairs of
France), the French in Mali helped to fight terrorists, groupings, whom
the same French armed and supported in Libya.
Here we need to step
away from personal subjective preferences and to determine main threats
for the region. In my opinion, they are clear – it is terrorism,
extremism, illegal turnover of weapons and everything related to this.
We create tremendous threats, when we pump illegal armed formations with
weapons. This is what we need to agree on rather than acting in a way:
“let us forget about everything – Syria faces problem, so lets us take
care of it”. We have taken care of Libya in the same way just recently,
and before that – of Iraq, absolutely disregarding the consequences it
causes in the Islamic world.
We should not disregard
that forceful involvement of external players into this or that
conflict in the Middle East and North Africa leads to a drastic
aggravation of confrontations inside the Islamic world. In our activity –
in the development of relations with the Organisation of Islamic
Cooperation (OIC), promotion of the initiative to support the “Dialogue
of civilisations”, creation of the “Alliance of civilisations” – we
always appeal to our Muslim friends to adhere to the principles of the
Amman Declaration, which was adopted at the conference held by Jordan
King Abdullah II in 2005, where it was announced that all Muslims are
brothers, and there can be no wars between Islamic countries.
All these events bring
dark thoughts. As to your specific question, like with the question
about “Plan B”, the use of force with UNSC sanctions is a gross
violation of international law. I will highlight again – even if we
leave aside legal, moral and ethical aspects (of the case) – specific
consequences of external intervention, unauthorized by the international
community, only drastically aggravate the situation in the country,
which they were allegedly saving from dictatorship and wished to
establish democracy there.
I was listening with
worries to the statements from Paris and London that NATO may interfere
to eliminate chemical weapons in Syria also without sanctions from the
UN Security Council. This is very dangerous and volatile path. Our
western partners already stepped on it several times. I hope that common
sense will prevail in the end.
We all need to think
jointly not how to resolve problems for some country, not how to support
one group of countries there instead of the other, but rather jointly
create conditions to establish peace everywhere and each country was a
comfortable place, where we see tolerance to ethnic and religious
minorities and rights of all these groups of people are ensured. The
efforts of the international community should be aimed at this – helping
countries of the region to find national peace and consent rather than
“driving wedges” in the hope to resolve own egoistic and geopolitical
tasks.
Question: According
to today’s messages of the western mass media, the United States and
the United Kingdom are preparing for the military operation in Syria
presuming that chemical weapons were indeed used in the Syrian Arab
Republic on the 21 August. Based on your latest contacts with US
Secretary of State John Kerry, in your opinion, what is the probability
of the West starting a military operation in the Syrian Arab Republic?
Sergey Lavrov: At
the end of our long phone conversation in the evening of the 25 August
John Kerry promised me again to attentively study our argumentation. He
said that he would call me back in the next days to continue discussing
the topic.
As to forecasts,
forecasts are a lowly employment and, I repeat, the threatening action
has already started. The events unfolded in the same way in Iraq 10
years ago and just recently in Libya. I have already mentioned that as
soon as we see a small light at the end of this “desperate” tunnel, we
immediately face those who wish to disrupt any chances to transfer the
situation into a political track. When LAS observers started their work
in Syria in autumn 2011 and reported more or less objective picture,
they were immediately withdrawn. Based on the Kofi Annan’s plan, UN
observers were deployed and worked for three months. Their first steps
allowed to slightly reducing the level of violence in the country.
Somebody did not like this and regular provocations started against
these UN observers. An intolerable situation was created around them,
and western colleagues in the UN Security Council refused to extend
their mandate for the next three months. Another chance was missed.
A meeting was held in
Geneva on 30 June 2012, where a communique was adopted by consensus of
almost all leading “players” – permanent members of the UN Security
Council, LAS members, Turkey, the European Union, the UN leaders. Russia
offered to approve this document in the Security Council, but they
refused us referring that a threat in the form of sanctions against the
regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad should be added to this
document, which was approved by consensus. The agreements were disrupted
again.
Later, as I have
already mentioned, the leader of the National Coalition for Syrian
Revolutionary and Opposition Forces Moaz al-Khatib spoke in favour of a
dialogue with Damascus – he was removed and new leaders were appointed
who did not allow for such lack of determination. And after that our
initiative with US Secretary of State John Kerry emerged to convene a
conference to finally implement the Geneva Communiqué, which was
rejected by our partners in the UN Security Council a year ago.
The current situation
around chemical weapons is willingly or unwillingly (I do not know whose
plan it is or it is just happening) working in favour of disrupting
this initiative. As we all have already heard, a strong military and
marine group is assembled under the pretext of punishing Bashar
al-Assad’s regime for the events of the 21 August (though nobody has
proven anything yet, but they already affirm that the regime is guilty –
without trial and record, without an opinion by the UN Security
Council). The United States, the United Kingdom and other countries
prepare their ships and aircraft for this operation.
Of course, in these
conditions – if we were the opposition, which does not want any
compromises with Bashar al-Assad, but others try to persuade you to go
to the conference, we would not agree to go to this forum, when the
military infrastructure of the regime in on the brink of being bombed,
and then the opposition will enter Damascus and will govern there
without any conferences. This is not a simple illusion – it is a
terrible mistake, which will not lead to peace and quiet, but will just
proclaim a new, even bloodier stage of the civil war in the Syrian Arab
Republic.
I have another fact I
have just learned, which supports the suspicions that somebody wishes to
disrupt any efforts to normalize the situation. UN chemical experts
have started their first assignment to visit the specific region (in the
East suburbs of Damascus), where they were subjected to sniper firing
in the area, which is under control of militants. I have no doubts that
it will be announced that snipers shot from the other side. In general,
the line goes in one direction and does not provide for any optimism.
Question: Do
Russian intelligence agencies have information, supporting that the
attack of the 21 August could be a provocation on behalf of the
opposition?
Sergey Lavrov: You
do not need to ask this question to Russian intelligence agencies. It
will suffice to view websites with pictures of the missile, which was
blown up, they contain an approximate description of the substance.
According to some characterises, it resembles a lot the missile, which
was blown up near Aleppo on the 19 March. Professional experts,
including those experienced in the work in OPCW, pay attention that such
video pictures arouse many questions. Terrible, heart-breaking scenes,
when dozens of children are lying. Then the question is: how and why
they were all in one place and in one time. Nobody explains it. Why the
symptoms we see on these videos do not resemble the symptoms, when
people get poisoned with sarin gas or any other substances. Why the
people who provide assistance to those who were exposed to this
substance do not have any chemical protection. The internet also
provides some intercepted e-mail communications, from which a conclusion
may be drawn that these substances were brought for the rebels from
foreign countries. An arms dump containing canisters with a chemical
substance has been found recently (you definitely follow the news).
I cannot affirm
anything, but, as to military and political aspect, the Syrian
Government absolutely does not need to use chemical weapons, when UN
experts are working there, when the military position is favourable to
the Government, when a Russian-American meeting to prepare for the
Geneva conference is expected in a few days. Is it beneficial for the
Syrian regime to use chemical weapons in such situation, in the midst of
the work of inspectors?
While, according to all
considerations I have already mentioned, it would be interesting for
the other party to organise such provocation, if they wish to provoke
strikes on the regime from foreign countries. I cannot affirm anything
unlike those, who have already stated that it was done by the
Government, and therefore the “gunboat diplomacy” is already working. We
must wait for objective examination by the UN expert group, of course,
if they are not prevented from doing this, as it happened today, when
they were subjected to a sniper fire.
Question: You
warned many times against a military interference into the Syrian
conflict and told about hard consequences for the Syrian Arab Republic
and the entire region. Could you be more specific about these hard
consequences?
Sergey Lavrov: I
think we see hard consequences of previous actions of interference in
the conflict in this region. Look what is happening in Libya: central
authorities, with whom we maintain our dialogue, do not control large
territories of their country, but militants, who participated in the
overthrow of Muammar al-Gaddafi made it through to Mali, where they were
fought back. People are afraid of them in other countries as well, in
particular, in Niger, Chad.
Take a look at Iraq, where dozens of people die every day and hundreds get injured as a result of bloody terrorist acts.
We see a real civil war
in Syria. The Government is fighting the so-called Free Syrian Army, as
well as the increasing number of terrorists from Djebhat an-Nusra and
the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, other terrorist groups. The
Free Syrian Army periodically confronts terrorist formations. If
somebody thinks that by bombing the Syrian military infrastructure and
leaving the battlefield for the opponents of the regime to win, they
will end it – it is an illusion. Even if they win in such a way, the
civil war will continue. Just those, who represented the Government will
become the opposition. The region has examples, when things happen in
this particular way.
Question:
As to the mechanism of work of UN experts. As you have said, they have
no mandate for determining, who committed the attack. Let us assume that
they find that some certain substance was used and this information
gets into the UN Security Council. If they have different opinions and
are not able to come to a single point of view, is it not possible that
UNSC will be rebuked for being inactive?
How many times does
this mission have to establish facts, because, according to messages of
the western mass media, the decision about possible intervention may be
made in a few days?
Sergey Lavrov:
As I have already said, the western leader make statements, from which
it follows that they are not going to wait for the results of this
mission’s work – they have decided everything themselves. By the way,
they did not make any comments on the detailed report, which was drawn
up as a result of our investigation of the incident of the 19 March.
This is absolutely professional, detailed and specific document with
results of all analyses, which were made in laboratories certified by
the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. By the way,
this is also a part of the mandate of the UN fact-finding mission. The
visit to the regions of Ghouta, where the incident of the 21 August took
place, was agreed in addition, when the mission has already come to
Damascus.
The OPCW – and its
experts participate in this UN mission – have their own rules, according
to which they do not make any accusational judgements, they just
present facts: certain substances were found in a certain place in a
certain time, the missile is factory-made or home-made, sarin or any
other substance meets factory standards, or does not meet them, or it
was home-made. Then it is up to the UNSC to decide.
The Security Council
faces different situations, when they do not come to a single
conclusion. I may assume that pragmatism, and, I would say,
irrecoverable assurance that they are right, currently demonstrated by
our western partners, when they announce loudly that they do not need
any investigations, they know everything, their intelligence agencies
have received conclusive data, make us think that they will take the
same position in the Security Council, if they go there at all. I will
highlight again – unlike us, who transferred their investigation results
to the UN and made them available to everybody, nobody shows these
“conclusive data” that the regime is guilty in the events of the 21
August.
In the UN Security
Council, we will use all the scope of information, including that found
on the Internet and insinuating serious doubts in the information other
are trying us to believe on TV.
Question:
As you have already said, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the United
Kingdom and France stated that they are ready for a forceful action
without a resolution from the UN Security Council. The Minister of
Foreign Affairs of Turkey said the same. How will Russia react, if
missile firing to military site of Syria will start without a sanction
from the UN Security Council?
Sergey Lavrov:
I think there is no need to guess about such reaction. First of all, we
never answer “if” questions. You may make conclusions presuming from
our position in the last years, when international law was grossly
violated in Yugoslavia, Iraq and Libya. This is bad. But we are not
going to fight anybody.
As before, we expect
that our western partners will determine their policy strategically
rather than reactively. We understand the limits for strategic thinking
related to the very frequent electoral cycle, when emotions of voters,
aggravated by the governing circles need to be satisfied, and later it
becomes a vice circle.
This is life. However,
it is sad that principles of international law become less significant
for our western partners, at least for the leading Western countries,
who at the same time are our leading partners. All those, who think that
they will be able to establish laws from the epoch of lawlessness,
probably act short-sightedly. It will definitely catch them up later.
What happens with the
freedom of the Internet? We were told many times, that there can be no
limits by definition. As it seems, this position, which was translated
at international forums, was not at all a guide for actions of those,
who promoted it on public. In practice, the freedom of the Internet was
abused and, probably, continue to abuse, as we say, very deeply. For the
time being, this is probably causing a mess, at least in terms of
morals and ethics.
You can pick any
sphere, and it is always better to follow the rules, to respect peoples
and help them agree between themselves, rather than thinking in
categories of “gunboat diplomacy”, stop to be sick for the colonial
past, the epoch, when they needed just to whisper for everybody to show
servile obedience. The world is changing today. It is impolite and
short-sighted to perceive other civilisations as second class groups of
the population. It will catch you up sometime in the future. We need to
avoid the war of civilisations in all possible ways. We are for the
dialogue, for the alliance of civilisations. But in this case we need to
respect each other’s traditions, the history of those communities,
which become more and more significant on our planet, to respect the
values, which have been created, established for centuries in these
societies and were transferred from one generation to another. It is so
simple – if you wish to get on well within your neighbours in your
village, the same principles apply. A disregard to such principles at
the international arena costs much more for taxpayers as well, and, the
worst – for peoples’ lives, who then become the “collateral damage”.
This terrible term (collateral damage) was invented to justify the gross
violations of international humanitarian law and has rooted deeply in
those, who promote concepts like “responsibility to protect”,
“humanitarian intervention” – when the motto of human right is used to
disrupt the most crucial right – the right to live. We are certainly not
going to fight anybody.
Thank you for your kind attention.